verbs in "xlx"

Discuss Arabic grammar

Moderator: Ehab

verbs in "xlx"

Postby eric489 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:42 pm

Hi !

I first of all want to thank all of the arabicpod.net staff for this wonderful site.

For verbs in the "xlx" form, those with an alif as second consonnant. ( My teacher calls them concave verbs, because their middle letter is an alif )

Ie : ساق ,قال,...

Do you form the person who does the verb action like this :
" second consonant of the root/verb + hamza with pointless ya + alif mamdouda + root's first consonnant"


Ie : ساق => سائل
قال=> قائل

Because for now, I've just found out this by reading some random sentences where the words were put in.
I'd like you to confirm if my "theory"/logic is correct or if there is another formula to find out the person doing the action from a given root.

By the way what's the real arabic grammar name given to these particular verbs ? ( and if it wouldn't be too much, could you give me the arabic grammatical names for all verbs form ? )


Another thing, what is the "masdar" ?
Is it the 3/4 consonant root of any derived word ?

Thanks in advance and keep it up, you're doing a GREAT job.
eric489
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:26 pm

Re: verbs in "xlx"

Postby toasterhead » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:04 am

I can help with part of your question. The masdar ( مصدر ) is the verbal noun, similar to the gerund tense in some languages. For work ( عمل ) it's working. ( العمل ) For buy ( اشترى ) it's buying ( شراء ). For use ( استخدم ) it's using ( استخدام ).

There doesn't seem to be a set pattern for forming it. There's probably a very complicated set of rules detailing how to form it, but I think for practical purposes you're better off just memorizing it for each verb.
السلام حنين عدوين.. كل على حدة
للتثاؤب فوق رصيف الضجر
- محمود درويش
User avatar
toasterhead
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: verbs in "xlx"

Postby Ehab » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:16 pm

What you wrote Eric489 about the concave verbs is right, it is basically like saying (فعل - فاعل) and keeping in mind that the middle is alef, so we make it hamza in conjugating the doer, like (قال) becomes (قائل), see:
ف ع ل --- ف ا ع ل
ق ا ل --- ق ا ئ ل
We call this type of verb that has vowel in the middle (fe3l ajwaf الفعل الأجوف).

With regards to the Masdar, I have to thank Toasterhead because what he wrote is right .
User avatar
Ehab
Site Admin
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:54 pm

Re: verbs in "xlx"

Postby eric489 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:24 pm

Thank you both Ehab and toasterhead for your replies.

Regarding the masdar reply, is it that in Arabic the masdar is a noun/substantive in Arabic derivated from the root which in most European languages would correspond to the gerund ? (just to check if I understood right)

So : خاف => الفوف

حسب => الحساب

and so on ...

Is that right ?

And for Ehab's answer, when it's a فعل الاجواف , you "add" a hamza in order to have a support for the kasra.
But when it's a regular verb (I think those are called فعل الصحيح , please correct me if I'm mistaking), you just keep the aleef mamdouda and use the second root consonant with a kasra.

And when it's regular verb type 2, those with shedda on second/mid consonant, you put "mu" + first verb consonant with aleef mamdouda + second verb consonant with kisra + final verb consonant ?
I saw this in : نظف => مناظف

This might maybe be too much questioning at once, but I think I'm finally getting the system !

And by the way, before I forget it : What does mamdouda mean ? elongated ?
Thanks in advance.
eric489
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:26 pm

Re: verbs in "xlx"

Postby suittenpointner » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:23 pm

Hi Eric,

yes, ممدود means "elongated" or "stretched". The root is مدّ and there is e.g. an assistant character called مادّةthat's written above the alif when you wnat to write (alif-hamza + alif). It looks like this: آ.
suittenpointner
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: verbs in "xlx"

Postby suittenpointner » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:51 pm

Hi again ...
I'll try to provide an overview ...
There are different dimensions we first have differentiate:
[list=][*]Different kinds of verbs, like the one you called "type 2". They are derivatives from the original verb, and they are called "أوزان" (="weights")[*]Different kinds of verbs, like the one you called "regular verb". Everytime a verb features a "weak" consonant, i.e., و or ي, it becomes a little trickier to conjugate because these consonants often are "suppressed" in terms of disappearing as a consonant and only leaving a vocal. Remember that و or ي have a double character: They are u/w and i/y, i.e., a vocal and a consonant in one. So, when you think of a verb like قال (qaala), "in fact" there's a root ق و ل (qawala), however, the و is suppressed but it comes back when you conjugate, like يقول (yaquulu).[/list]

Now, you say ...
eric489 wrote:And for Ehab's answer, when it's a فعل الاجواف , you "add" a hamza in order to have a support for the kasra.
... I'd rather say you transform the (hidden) و to a hamza.

When you say ...
eric489 wrote:But when it's a regular verb (I think those are called فعل الصحيح , please correct me if I'm mistaking), you just keep the aleef mamdouda and use the second root consonant with a kasra.

... it's not right because the alif mamduuda is always used in this form (the present participle). Only, in that case you simply don't need the hamza because the middle consonant is not a "weak" one and isn't suppressed.

Finally, when you say ...
eric489 wrote:And when it's regular verb type 2, those with shedda on second/mid consonant, you put "mu" + first verb consonant with aleef mamdouda + second verb consonant with kisra + final verb consonant ? I saw this in : نظف => مناظف

... it's not right in detail but in general because
  • In detail, it's ناظف => مناظف (type 3) and نظف => منظّف (while I'm not sure whether both of these words really exist)
  • In general, it's right and any form from type 2 to type 10 has a present participle beginning with م
suittenpointner
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:23 pm


Return to Grammar Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron