Is it 3' or '3 .. please all contribute.

Discuss the Arabic alphabet

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Is it 3' or '3 .. please all contribute.

Postby Ehab » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:26 pm

I have two points about the way of writing the Arabic pronunciation in English letters and I want as much as possible of opinions please:

First: Do you write the letter GH like 3' or '3 ? I mean the sign ( ' ) which represents the dot, is it before or after.
I'm making a campaign to unite the system of writing the pronunciation and get a new version that everyone would agree on. The current system, which is even not systemized has so many areas where the reader might be confused and I want to get red of this confusion.
Second: Try to read this: (Thahab)
Is this (TH) pronounced like TH as in (Think) or like TH as in (This)?
In Arabic, we have two different letters are represented in the same way in the English pronunciation, the letter TH (as in THink) which is the fourth letter in the Arabic alphabet, and the letter TH (as in THis) which is the ninth letter in the Arabic alphabet.
It is very important to show the difference between them. I had a discussion with Moshaya about it and I suggested that we keep the letter TH (as in THink) as it is. But change the letter TH (as in THis) to be ( d' ) because in Arabic the only difference between D (د) and TH (ذ) is the dot ( ' ) so we are making it a D with dot – see alphabet table in any of the pdf transcripts.
I need your opinions, please contribute in recording new thing in history of the language.. Change toward the best.

Salam

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Postby Henda » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:36 pm

Marhaba Eba
Firts of all, my mother tong is french, but maybe my input could also help you:

1) GH-> 3'
2) TH-> i first made the error by prounoncing it T-his, but a friend of mine told me it has to be prounce it TH-ink

Salam a3leyk

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Postby mujtahida » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:42 pm

Salam,
I don't think it really matters whether you use '3 or 3' for غ (ghain) so long as u are consistent in what you use.
I think it is a good idea if you change the english letter used to represent ذ (dhaal/d'aal) because at the moment some confusion may creep in as you are using the same english letters (TH) to represent both ث (tha) and ذ (dhaal/d'aal).
Again, I believe it's not important what letters you choose to use so long as you're consistent. The suggestion you made to use d' for ذ sounds good to me :-) and makes sense too.
JazakAllahu 7'air for all of your hard work :-D
Last edited by mujtahida on Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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" 3' "

Postby Ismahan » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:53 pm

مرحبا

So far I have seen several English-Arabic transliteration versions of writing Arabic letters, in particular "غ" can be written as follows:

1) "3." (see http://www4.ncsu.edu/~yahussai/A_E/ );

2) ".g" (in Arabtex (a system for typing in Arabic, based on typesetting package Tex));

3) or even "**" (see http://vereb.free.fr/transliteration/tr ... rator.html).

Regarding your idea to write "غ" as " 3' " or " '3 " I think " 3' " is better because in the system you use letters are written
from the left to the right, and in the most of the languages different signs are written after a certain letter. In Arabic, for instance, vowels are also shown after a letter, but there the direction of writing is opposite then. So to me it is more natural to use " 3' " for left-to-right scripts and " '3 " for the right-to-left ones. Hope my suggestions can be useful.

مع ثحياتي

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Postby Ismahan » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:00 pm

Regarding letters "د" and "ذ" I think you are right and it is reasonable to use "d" for "د" and " d' " for "ذ" .

مع ثحياتي

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Postby kingdon » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:12 pm

Just to throw in my vote, I like 3' best out of the options presented. But what about hamza? This is usually written as 2 or ' when I've seen it... I've also seen some writings where hamza is not used at all (even in traditional arabic script) and I think it's kind of sloppy; this is a helpful aide, especially to disambiguate verb forms from each other.

Also this is sort of off-topic, but are there any mac users out there who type in arabic using arabic keymaps? I've tried this in the past and I noticed some annoying issues, like I couldn't find taa marbuta and the layout itself didn't seem to correspond to any standard (windows or linux) keymaps. Any happy arabic mac users who would like to share their experience?
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Kingdon response etc...

Postby tomest05 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:15 am

Dear Kingdon,

I have been using a Powerbook G4 running MAC OSX, and I am having no problems with the Arabic keypad, I simply switch it to Arabic mode and begin typing in Arabic most of the keys are juxtaposed the same way as Arabic (Lebanon) Keyboard 101 from back in the day that I used Windows XP. I have a tarmabuta ة ة ة I use the "]" to produce it when in Arabic mode.

As for the Ehab and Mohammed's move for standardizing the transliteration, I applaud them, perhaps they can even patten it. I would definitely try to work out all kinks though before such a venture. Such as how to deal with dipthongs... bayt or beit for بيت (house).
To be honest I am still used to reading the old British system of transliteration where they use a mix of capital letters and ' to signify characters. I frankly get a bit confused when I see numbers. But that's just personal and not taking the time to figure out the system fully.

Either way I'll be glad to provide any input as it develops.

Tomes
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Postby Ehab » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:46 am

Salam everyone;
Thanks all for your contribution, I'm really glad to see the opinions and the explanation about the subject.
The reason I opened this subject, because we're -ArabicPod- in the last touches of making a new software to be a reference of pronouncing the Arabic letters. The first version of A.p.g. (Arabic pronunciation guide) will be published soon.
We need to systemise any new development in the language and that was the main reason behind my request. Try to read these words:
- ya7'6ob
- i9'6araba
- yatheb
There are so many other examples where we might be confused if there is no reference. Simply, there is no harm of giving a unity to the system.
Thanks again everyone for your contribution, if you have any comments, here is your platform, and we're happy to answer.
keep it up and wait for the A.p.g. soon ;)
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Postby Ehab » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:50 am

Salam 3alaykom everyone;
Here is the software that I posted my topic for,, please post your comments about it if you have any.. see APG here: http://www.arabicpod.net/apg.php
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Postby jookieapc » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:56 am

Hi what symbols do you use for ض, ص, ط,ظ؟
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Postby mujtahida » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:45 pm

hi jookieapc,
check out the PDF there's a key at the top with the symbols used for each arabic letter.
they use the following symbols to represent the letters you mentioned:
ض = '9
ص = 9
ط = 6
ظ = '6
have you seen the APG page it's pretty cool, i'm still having difficulty with those ع lol don't think i'll ever get a grasp of them no matter how many times i listen
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Postby Afreeqiya » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:25 am

Don't forget that al-hamza is also a part of the alphabet. It's denoted with a "2".
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